[Ancientartifacts] Re: Indus valley civilization Iron Laddle ,1800- 2300 B.C

Hi Firdause,

My point is still we really need to get past Wiki citations for dates (a self-edited resource by anonymous users) and find the origin excavation reports, C14 dates, and discussion of specific artefacts by an academic.

The Wiki article does not mention iron casting specifically as far as I can see, this is where we need to 'cast out misunderstandings'.

Some cursory reading of current primary Indian research gives an explanation of its ancient centres of iron production, but naturally no evidence for casting of iron (or "lost-wax iron casting" for that matter).

Here is discussion on securely dated iron of a specific archaeological provenance. There are illustration in the report.

See; "The origins of Iron working in India": Rakesh Tawari. http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/iron-ore.html

It is also worth noting the condition and appearance of typical iron artefacts from this period, when somebody presents an iron object and claims it is of such antiquity also.

 

Ganga plain iron working in the ancient period was dated to between as the earliest horizon as 1800BC (based on a C14) and a lower horizon to 900BC for some other sites. The is very early of course, and generally the upper and lower results of C14 calibrations are to be taken alongside more consistent result which skews it in the middle. The mid-second century BC is a more consistent banding of dates from the larger selection of results. The introduction to the paper below gives various accounts of earlier Indian researcher conclusions similarily around this range, from 1000BC-1300BC for early iron (mainly late 1990's publicatons). This is much like Phil Jones said, and yet Nirav thought was 1,000 years too young. Now rather earlier in the second mellenium BC is a proposition due to the oldest possible datings suggests Tawari, the possible oldest horizon at 1800BC. Laypeople need to use the results of this with just a little caution as upper dates can later be revised in turn, as occured in Ban Chiang bronze-age or the earliest C14 dating in Xinjiang. C14 has a margin or error in centuries. There is however clearly no evidence as Nirav says that iron was worked "...in and before 2000 B.C...", or that it ever was cast, even using the oldest possible date intepretation provided by science.

Some Indian researchers propose that rather than an Eastward migration of Vedic people bringing the technology (as Anatolian iron working is earlier) India was instead an centre of iron working that developed independently.

Maybe. The same debates exist for China too. While I can't comment on this, as research continues, there is no mention of casting of iron or a blast furnace in existence at this time. Both the type of iron produced by casting (white iron/high carbon) and the blast furnance technology needed to create it, as Robert explained, is not supported by the present analysis.

The distinction between base iron working (smelting) and iron casting is not a mere trifling point when we apply it to objects under discussion. Casting is a technology that has quite an impact on utensil creation and revolutionises farm work for example, and has implications for society, class and production. It would not have escaped comment had there been any evidence for it.

While slag and iron objects exist in very ancient India there is no reference to cast iron.

Hope this helps, & enjoy the weekend.

 

 

Re: Indus valley civilization Iron Laddle ,1800- 2300 B.C

Posted by: "firdause mehraygan" deltarocked@yahoo.com   deltarocked

Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:27 am (PDT)

Dear all...
SUB: Nirav -Iron Casting- String

Iron out ... Cast away Misunderstandings... !!

It has been a well established fact that RIG VEDA... an ancient Indian sacred collection of Vedic Sanskrit hymns ... is the worlds oldest documented scripture having strong linguistic and cultural similarities with the early Iranian Avesta, deriving from the Proto-Indo-Iranian times, associated with the early Andronovo culture of ca. 2000 BCE
RIG VEDA ... undoubtedly the world´s oldest scripture- but scholars on the subject differ on dating it ... from 1200 BC to even 5000-7000 BC ...
RIG VEDA ... Refers to AYAS... meaning [iron...maybe bronze, as scholars tend to differ here too]
Read about Rig Veda: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda

BUT ... An interesting study on the History of Metallurgy in the Indian subcontinent... throws light on IRON CASTING by referring to Archaeological sites in India, such as Malhar, Dadupur, Raja Nala Ka Tila and Lahuradewa in the state of Uttar Pradesh show iron implements in the period between 1800 BC - 1200 BC
Article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_metallurgy_in_the_Indian_subcontinent

India certainly has one of the richest cultures in the world ... civilizations like the Indua Valley & Harappa ... are probably the only ones that have been unearthed till date... there are several references in the VEDA´ & UPANISHADS about the ancient EPIC´ like the RAMAYANA & the MAHABHARATHA ... but solely for lack of scientific proof / evidence the same are termed as Myths... but not for long as Archaeology in India is now becoming a very serious study and given time will change many perceptions, thoughts & philosophies...

So as I understand ... if we consider the 2 articles referred to ... and understand it... then it would be no use to argue on this issue... as Iron Casting was not alien to ancient India at-least during 1800 BC... which is scientifically proved...!!

Thanks all... I think this was lengthy ... am on my way .... enjoying a long... longggggggg weekend...

Firdause I


----- Original Message ----
From: Nirav Kikani <antiques7collectibles@yahoo.com>
To: Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 20 March, 2008 12:11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Indus valley civilization Iron Laddle ,1800- 2300 B.C

Dear List,
I would request Phillip to kindly mention what ARchaeological evidence demonstrates that the earliest use of Iron in India was around 1000 B.C. And I hope Wiki wouldnt be a valid source to prove the point in Antiquity Field. I mentioned earlier that it had been existent in and before 2000 B.C. Kindly refer to reference mentioned in previous mail.

This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communication or disclose anything about it. Thank you. Please note that this communication does not designate an information system for the purposes of the Electronic Transactions Act 2002. 

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