__._,_.___----- Original Message -----From: BronSent: Friday, April 25, 2008 3:07 PMSubject: [Ancientartifacts] Adopting newbies. Was :Re: Opinions please-Hi,
This seller with these rubbishy things "ex Beverly Hills collection"
deserves to be put on the black list and then told so!!
Cheers,
Bron.
-- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. , "rolf5568"com
<heliosgallery@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tim and Ramon,
>
> Perhaps fleabay offering number 360044350306 illustrates my point?
>
> I'm sure the vendor is entirely innocent and perhaps not great at
> identifying antiquities but the open reference to a blacklist
> strongly implies to an unexperienced buyer that all his items must
> therefore be considered genuine...
>
> Tim's point is logical but how many buyers on ebay apply common
sense
> before making a purchase? I'm not saying they don't have common
> sense, just that many buyers temporarily suspend it because they so
> desperately want to believe a vendor's description. Its funny you
> should mention the ALR: actually, I think that their checks have
much
> the same effect: yes, they occasionally do a bit of good by finding
> something which has been stolen (normally considered to be the job
of
> the police) and it shows good intentions if a dealer runs their
stock
> thru their database... but it gives no warranty of legal title or
> authenticity. The ALR are not misleading anyone, but its easy for
an
> unscrupulous individual to use their services in order to do so.
For
> example, the database can not identify items which have been
> excavated illegally. If (!) I was to buy a wonderful Sumerian
figure
> fresh from a bomb crater in Basra the first thing I'd do is run it
> through the ALR - it would be my get-out-of-jail-free card and my
> pitiful excuse at "due dilligance" if it was ever questioned - pay
a
> small fee and probably avoid jail....
>
> Like the ALR, a "bad dealer list" or "fake antiquities list" is
good
> in principle but aspects leave it wide open to abuse (in my
opinion),
> and should therefore be addressed before a buyer thinks its their
> best way of double-checking a purchase.
>
> Cheers,
> Rolf
>
>
>
> --- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. , "Ramon Jr" <rsdeheredia@com >
> wrote:
> >
> > Rolf and Tim.
> > Personally I can not imagine a bad seller in eBay making
references
> > in his listing to a bad sellers or fake artifacts list. Or to
> > fakebusting groups.Wish they would.Group members would grow fast.
> > Ramon Saenz de Heredia.
> > This weekend and next I'll inform c.60 newbies (10 communications
> per
> > day is the limit on eBay)who have bought fakes.Will ,if possible,
> > report on results.
> > --- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. , "tuppennyblue" <tim@>com
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Rolf
> > >
> > > With respect, I disagree that if an item is not on a fakes list
> > that it would enable someone to say that it must be genuine. If
an
> > item is not on the Art Loss Register, does that prove that it is
> not
> > stolen? If someone is not wanted by the police, does that prove
> that
> > they are not a criminal? A Fake Art Register along the lines of
> the
> > Art Loss would seem a great idea to me.
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > > From: rolf5568
> > > To: Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. com
> > > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 7:49 AM
> > > Subject: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Opinions please
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Tim,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the clarification.
> > > I don't know the details of Bron's early warning system but I
> > agree
> > > that anything which could possibly prevent fakes from being
> > > circulated must be a good thing. One concern would be that
> lists
> > > of "bad" dealers or mass-produced fakes can be used to the
> > crooks'
> > > advantage... i.e. what's to stop someone claiming an item
must
> be
> > > genuine because it does not appear on a list of fakes? And if
a
> > > seller of fakes has not yet appeared on the rogue's list,
could
> > this
> > > in some way legitimise their offerings, especially in a rapid-
> > > turnover environment such as Fleabay?
> > > I'm sure the indefatigable Bron has a solution!
> > >
> > > The Good Dealer List seems excellent, its a shame objects can
> not
> > be
> > > classified in the same way on a wide scale. Its interesting
to
> > see
> > > that a couple of high-profile names who (deservedly) do not
> > appear on
> > > the list have sparked a few concerned emails and hopefully
> saved
> > a
> > > few collectors from being stung: great stuff.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Rolf
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. , "tuppennyblue"com
<tim@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Rolf
> > > >
> > > > I was referring to one specific London gallery: sorry if my
> > > inappropriate capitalisation and pluralisation was
misleading!
> > The
> > > gallery is definitely a respected, legitimate ADA member. As
> Bron
> > > says, he has refunded, so has behaved entirely honourably.
> > > >
> > > > Bron's idea of an early warning system for dealers is an
> > excellent
> > > one, and to make it available to collectors is even better.
> > > >
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: rolf5568
> > > > To: Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. com
> > > > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:12 AM
> > > > Subject: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Opinions please
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Ramon,
> > > >
> > > > If you buy an item from an ADA member which is later
> considered
> > > > questionable and the dealer is not able to resolve the
> problem
> > or
> > > > disputes your assessment, you have the benefit of being
able
> to
> > > ask
> > > > the ADA to make an independent arbitration on the matter.
> This
> > > means
> > > > that the item will be assessed by the ADA's governing
> committee
> > > > (which includes several of the world's leading dealers) and
> > they
> > > will
> > > > provide an opinion based on their combined knowledge or
from
> > > further
> > > > investigation if required. If the seller's description was
> > found
> > > to
> > > > be inaccurate, then that dealer would be asked to conclude
> the
> > > matter
> > > > in a way that would ensure the satisfaction of the buyer
and
> > the
> > > > reputation of the association.
> > > >
> > > > See: http://www.theada.co.uk/code. htm
> > > >
> > > > Tim mentioned some questionable shabtis sold by London
> > Galleries
> > > > (capitalised) - there is no ADA member trading as London
> > > Galleries
> > > > listed on the ADA website. If you meant galleries in the
> > general
> > > > sense, then sorry for being pedantic ;-)
> > > > If a dealer claims to be an ADA member but is not listed on
> > > > www.theada.co.uk I would strongly recommend avoiding them
> > > completely.
> > > > If they are prepared to lie about association memberships
> > they're
> > > > probably also prepared to lie about their stock. I would
also
> > > advise
> > > > any potential buyer to apply caution on any website which
> > claims
> > > > to "abide by the code of conduct" of the ADA: this is a
> > > nonsensical
> > > > statement unless you are bound by it (i.e. a member) and
> means
> > > > absolutely nothing. This is sometimes stated in good
> intention
> > by
> > > non-
> > > > members but it can also be used to mislead buyers and imply
> > some
> > > sort
> > > > of safety net on purchases.
> > > >
> > > > If you find a dealer/ebay listing/website claiming to be a
> > member
> > > of
> > > > the ADA and can not find them on the ADA website please
> report
> > > the
> > > > details to the ADA secretary (details on www.theada.co.uk)
or
> > > myself
> > > > at www.heliosgallery.com
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Rolf
> > > > PS My answer to Ramon's question is my own understanding of
> the
> > > ADA
> > > > rules based on my long-standing membership, but please ask
> the
> > > > association directly if you would like an exact
> clarification.
> > > >
> > > > --- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. , "Ramon Jr"com
> > > <rsdeheredia@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > How does the Antique Dealers Association act when this
type
> > > > > of situation occurs.
> > > > > Ramon Saenz de Heredia
> > > > > --- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. , "tuppennyblue"com
> > <tim@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...and again to add that some of these fakes are VERY
> > > DANGEROUS,
> > > > > being unwittingly sold by ADA member London Galleries and
> > > bought by
> > > > > highly experienced collectors. I strongly recommend
> studying
> > > the
> > > > > pictures and learning the types.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tim
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Dik van Bommel
> > > > > > To: ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:44 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [Ancientartifacts] Opinions please
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ushabtis are fake, see Bron's site for more info about
> > > PadiIset
> > > > > http://www.collector-antiquities. com/230/
> > > > > > carpe diem,
> > > > > > dik
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> > > > > > Van: sam rezoski
> > > > > > Aan: Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. com
> > > > > > Ontvangen: dinsdag 22 april 2008 19:39
> > > > > > Onderwerp: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Opinions please
> > > > > >
> > > > > > shabtis look " not uthentic"
> > > > > > lamp too but good price as a reproduction
> > > > > > I dont know what boat it is ? it looks very strang
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ramon Jr <rsdeheredia@> wrote:
> > > > > > Pics no good.Sorry.
> > > > > > Padi...... shabtis
> > > > > > 310042683381
> > > > > > 310042683463
> > > > > > SYRO HITTITE BOAT
> > > > > > 310042683954
> > > > > > oil lamp
> > > > > > 310031328080
> > > > > > The buyer really liked it
> > > > > > Beautiful addition to my collection--thanks! magnus_j (
> > > > 231)
> > > > > Apr-19-08
> > > > > > 12:01
> > > > > > ANCIENT ANTIQUITY ROMAN OIL LAMP WITH SATYR FACE
> > > > > (#310031328080) GBP
> > > > > > 35.00 View Item
> > > > > > Ramon Saenz de Heredia
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------- --------- --------- --------- --------
--
> > > > --
> > > > > --------
> > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with
> Yahoo!
> > > > > Mobile. Try it now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------- --------- --------- --------- --------
--
> > > > --
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > > Checked by AVG.
> > > > > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.3/1392 -
> Release
> > > > Date:
> > > > > 22/04/2008 15:51
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > > ----------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG.
> > > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.4/1394 - Release
> > Date:
> > > 23/04/2008 19:16
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
--
> --
> > ----------
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG.
> > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.4/1396 - Release
> Date:
> > 24/04/2008 18:32
> > >
> >
>
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.4/1396 - Release Date: 24/04/2008 18:32
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__,_._,___
