Hi
I just registered.
I have some experience with ''ancient'' pottery items from China.A.o. some 5 very genuine looking Tang pottery horses. They were subsequently thermoluminiscence tested in Germany where I live. They were ALL fake!!!
Some 15 small (25 cm) Ming statues, ALL from 1(one) dealer only, appeared to be genuine!!!
The analysis is quite costly: I paid some $250 per test. But then you KNOW something!
The statues were 3 groups of 5 statues each of which 1 per group, picked randomly, was tested.
Bosscher.
----- Original Message ----
From: Dave Welsh <dwelsh46@cox.net>
To: Unidroit-L <Unidroit-L@yahoogroups.com>; Ancientartifacts <Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 2:38:31 PM
Subject: [Ancientartifacts] Is there any hope that common sense can prevail?
Coin collectors, art dealers fear restrictions on Chinese imports
http://tinyurl.com/4nc6du
American coin collectors and art dealers say a rule under consideration at
the State Department could dramatically decrease the importation of goods
from China, crippling a booming antiquities market in the United States.
The State Department has not yet imposed any restrictions, but officials are
considering requiring shippers to provide documentation of ownership when
moving goods from China to the United States. Chinese officials, who asked
the State Department for the change in 2004, argue the rule is a way to
protect China's cultural heritage and prevent the trafficking of stolen
goods.
Coin collectors and art dealers fear more than a receipt will be required.
Instead, they expect to have to track an item's lineage under the new rule.
That could dramatically scale back what is a growing, multimillion-dollar
antiquities trade with Asia and foist an unmanageable amount of paperwork on
small-business coin collectors, critics claim.
Without the necessary paperwork, customs inspectors could seize the
artifacts.
With this summer's Beijing Olympics drawing new attention to the
relationship between the United States and China, opponents of the proposed
rule worry State Department officials might grant the request as a
diplomatic gift.
"China is making a big deal about the Olympics, and this would be a nice
crumb to throw them," said Peter Tompa, of counsel to Bailey & Ehrenberg ,
who represents several coin collector organizations in Washington.
But archaeologists and historians have joined Chinese officials in pushing
for the new restrictions. Looting of artifacts has become rampant in Asia,
creating a booming black market for the goods.
"First of all, it would reduce the financial incentives to loot an
archaeological site," said Patty Gerstenblith, president of the Lawyers
Committee for Cultural Heritage Preservation . "Secondly, the point of the
restrictions would encourage more transparency of the trade by calling for
more documentation."
But coin collectors and art dealers say the new restrictions would not curb
the sale of stolen goods. The market for Chinese antiquities is much larger
in that country than in the United States, so tamping down on shipments here
would do little to stop looting, they believe.
Both sides, though, share a frustration with the State Department, which has
yet to take an official position even though China first made the request in
2004. A State Department official said the request was still under review.
Congress is keeping an eye on the administration as well. Sens. Kit Bond
(R-Mo.) and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), whose constituents include art dealers
and museums, wrote to the State Department expressing their concerns about
the requested limits.
"This restriction could put a huge dent in the U.S. market for Chinese
antiquities," said James Fitzpatrick, senior partner at Arnold & Porter.
Fitzpatrick represents J.J. Lally & Co. Oriental Art, which is based in New
York City and is one of the major private dealers in Chinese antiquities.
Lally and major auction houses like Christie's and Sotheby's have taken
issue with the pending restrictions, according to Schumer's correspondence
with the State Department. And for good reason: The art market in China has
taken off this century.
For example, Sotheby's reported its Asian art sales had risen almost $438
million from 2001 to 2007 - resulting in an annual growth rate of 29 percent
- according to its 2007 report with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Much of that can be credited to art from China.
Coins are a million-dollar business as well. On VCoins.com , a popular sales
website for hobbyists, there are more than 72,000 ancient coins listed,
worth more than $15 million.
American coin collectors believe the State Department has already leveraged
their interests in the name of international diplomacy. Many point to a
State Department announcement in 2007 placing restrictions on the
importation of ancient Cypriot coins into the United States.
In the announcement, State Department officials thanked Cyprus profusely for
its help with Americans fleeing Lebanon a year earlier.
"It's not tit for tat. They can't trade off the interests of American people
to earn favors overseas," said Wayne Sayles, executive director of the
Ancient Coin Collector's Guild .
Sayles, Tompa and others have fought to get more information on what they
contend is a secretive process on imposing the import restrictions.
The Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC) makes final recommendations
to the State Department on the restrictions asked for by foreign
governments, but many have had difficulty in obtaining documents from the
panel.
Coin collectors sued the State Department after their Freedom of Information
Act requests were denied. Just last week, the coin collectors' groups began
to receive heavily redacted documents on the Cypriot request, but nothing on
the Chinese one. They plan to contest that move by State, too.
Bond, for one, hopes the matter will be resolved soon.
"I have longstanding concerns over the lack of transparency and openness in
the State Department's cultural property decision-making process and the
operations of [CPAC]," Bond said in a statement from his office.
"Federal agencies and advisory committees need to follow federal sunshine
laws, and it would be disappointing if a lawsuit is required to make them do
so," Bond said.
Gerstenblith agreed that the State Department should release all the
information it is required to. But she acknowledged that diplomacy can come
into play in these decisions.
"I don't think there is anything wrong in viewing a broader cultural
diplomacy context for the U.S," said Gerstenblith. "The question is whether
the preservation of our cultural heritage is worth it. I think it is."
Restrictions on artifacts in similar agreements between the United States
and other countries have strengthened ties, according to Cindy Ho, president
of Saving Antiquities For Everyone , a nonprofit group that advocates for
the preservation of cultural heritage.
For example, an agreement with the United States required El Salvador to
rebuild its art museum. In addition, Italy extended its loan period of
artifacts to American museums from six months to four years after an
agreement reached with the United States.
If China's request were granted, Ho believes there would be similar
benefits.
"Every day that goes by without an [agreement] is another day we are not
doing everything we can to stop the plunder of China's cultural heritage,
everyone's cultural heritage," said Ho.
...
Dave Welsh
Unidroit-L Listowner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unidroit-L
dwelsh46@cox.net
------------------------------------
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From: Dave Welsh <dwelsh46@cox.net>
To: Unidroit-L <Unidroit-L@yahoogroups.com>; Ancientartifacts <Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 2:38:31 PM
Subject: [Ancientartifacts] Is there any hope that common sense can prevail?
Coin collectors, art dealers fear restrictions on Chinese imports
http://tinyurl.com/4nc6du
American coin collectors and art dealers say a rule under consideration at
the State Department could dramatically decrease the importation of goods
from China, crippling a booming antiquities market in the United States.
The State Department has not yet imposed any restrictions, but officials are
considering requiring shippers to provide documentation of ownership when
moving goods from China to the United States. Chinese officials, who asked
the State Department for the change in 2004, argue the rule is a way to
protect China's cultural heritage and prevent the trafficking of stolen
goods.
Coin collectors and art dealers fear more than a receipt will be required.
Instead, they expect to have to track an item's lineage under the new rule.
That could dramatically scale back what is a growing, multimillion-dollar
antiquities trade with Asia and foist an unmanageable amount of paperwork on
small-business coin collectors, critics claim.
Without the necessary paperwork, customs inspectors could seize the
artifacts.
With this summer's Beijing Olympics drawing new attention to the
relationship between the United States and China, opponents of the proposed
rule worry State Department officials might grant the request as a
diplomatic gift.
"China is making a big deal about the Olympics, and this would be a nice
crumb to throw them," said Peter Tompa, of counsel to Bailey & Ehrenberg ,
who represents several coin collector organizations in Washington.
But archaeologists and historians have joined Chinese officials in pushing
for the new restrictions. Looting of artifacts has become rampant in Asia,
creating a booming black market for the goods.
"First of all, it would reduce the financial incentives to loot an
archaeological site," said Patty Gerstenblith, president of the Lawyers
Committee for Cultural Heritage Preservation . "Secondly, the point of the
restrictions would encourage more transparency of the trade by calling for
more documentation."
But coin collectors and art dealers say the new restrictions would not curb
the sale of stolen goods. The market for Chinese antiquities is much larger
in that country than in the United States, so tamping down on shipments here
would do little to stop looting, they believe.
Both sides, though, share a frustration with the State Department, which has
yet to take an official position even though China first made the request in
2004. A State Department official said the request was still under review.
Congress is keeping an eye on the administration as well. Sens. Kit Bond
(R-Mo.) and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), whose constituents include art dealers
and museums, wrote to the State Department expressing their concerns about
the requested limits.
"This restriction could put a huge dent in the U.S. market for Chinese
antiquities," said James Fitzpatrick, senior partner at Arnold & Porter.
Fitzpatrick represents J.J. Lally & Co. Oriental Art, which is based in New
York City and is one of the major private dealers in Chinese antiquities.
Lally and major auction houses like Christie's and Sotheby's have taken
issue with the pending restrictions, according to Schumer's correspondence
with the State Department. And for good reason: The art market in China has
taken off this century.
For example, Sotheby's reported its Asian art sales had risen almost $438
million from 2001 to 2007 - resulting in an annual growth rate of 29 percent
- according to its 2007 report with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Much of that can be credited to art from China.
Coins are a million-dollar business as well. On VCoins.com , a popular sales
website for hobbyists, there are more than 72,000 ancient coins listed,
worth more than $15 million.
American coin collectors believe the State Department has already leveraged
their interests in the name of international diplomacy. Many point to a
State Department announcement in 2007 placing restrictions on the
importation of ancient Cypriot coins into the United States.
In the announcement, State Department officials thanked Cyprus profusely for
its help with Americans fleeing Lebanon a year earlier.
"It's not tit for tat. They can't trade off the interests of American people
to earn favors overseas," said Wayne Sayles, executive director of the
Ancient Coin Collector's Guild .
Sayles, Tompa and others have fought to get more information on what they
contend is a secretive process on imposing the import restrictions.
The Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC) makes final recommendations
to the State Department on the restrictions asked for by foreign
governments, but many have had difficulty in obtaining documents from the
panel.
Coin collectors sued the State Department after their Freedom of Information
Act requests were denied. Just last week, the coin collectors' groups began
to receive heavily redacted documents on the Cypriot request, but nothing on
the Chinese one. They plan to contest that move by State, too.
Bond, for one, hopes the matter will be resolved soon.
"I have longstanding concerns over the lack of transparency and openness in
the State Department's cultural property decision-making process and the
operations of [CPAC]," Bond said in a statement from his office.
"Federal agencies and advisory committees need to follow federal sunshine
laws, and it would be disappointing if a lawsuit is required to make them do
so," Bond said.
Gerstenblith agreed that the State Department should release all the
information it is required to. But she acknowledged that diplomacy can come
into play in these decisions.
"I don't think there is anything wrong in viewing a broader cultural
diplomacy context for the U.S," said Gerstenblith. "The question is whether
the preservation of our cultural heritage is worth it. I think it is."
Restrictions on artifacts in similar agreements between the United States
and other countries have strengthened ties, according to Cindy Ho, president
of Saving Antiquities For Everyone , a nonprofit group that advocates for
the preservation of cultural heritage.
For example, an agreement with the United States required El Salvador to
rebuild its art museum. In addition, Italy extended its loan period of
artifacts to American museums from six months to four years after an
agreement reached with the United States.
If China's request were granted, Ho believes there would be similar
benefits.
"Every day that goes by without an [agreement] is another day we are not
doing everything we can to stop the plunder of China's cultural heritage,
everyone's cultural heritage," said Ho.
...
Dave Welsh
Unidroit-L Listowner
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unidroit-L
dwelsh46@cox.net
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ancientartifacts/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ancientartifacts/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:Ancientartifacts-digest@yahoogroups.com
mailto:Ancientartifacts-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Ancientartifacts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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