"....All apart from the Kiwi freakwit that posted here recently, I take it...."
And who are you, you pale little turd?
A collector of toy cars did you say?
Since all you can do is offer one liners to Dave's post, whatever ones feelings on it, you seem to have missed one point that the internal market in the mainland is expanding so the Chinese government lacks the sincerity to police their own backyard firstly. Hundreds of Chinese auction houses have opened since the 1990's to cater for Chinese desire for undocumented artefacts. Did you miss my mention of the Yueguo private museum in Shaoxing? Chinese purchase artefacts from Taiwan and Hong Kong since their appetites are growing and in Chinese cities you can find better artefact markets than any outside the country.
The police are not raiding any of those I have seen, let alone the blankets in a flea market that have dirt encrusted bronzes laid out on them.
As with many things in China, the law does little to crack down on illicit activities unless it involves something like a photograph of the Dalai Lama.
Trust you Trever and your 'robust debate'. Even Paul suggested you need not inflamme discussion.
Simple personal attacks and sarcasm is all you have offered over these few weeks, nothing actually insightul or relevent.
You show yourself to be a total prick who can do little else.
As an Aussie you should understand what it means to bounce around insults. Fuck you.
I would smack you upside the head if you weren't just some dork who gets his jollies by insulting people across cyber-space.
Paul, give your dog a kick in the ribs. He is smelly and noisy.
Posted by: "ursa_one@bigpond.com" ursa_one@bigpond.com ursa_one
Wed May 28, 2008 7:46 am (PDT)
---- Dave Welsh <dwelsh46@cox.net > wrote:
> Coin collectors, art dealers fear restrictions on Chinese imports
Well,....I guess not, Dave.
> American coin collectors and art dealers say a rule under consideration at
> the State Department could dramatically decrease the importation of goods
> from China, crippling a booming antiquities market in the United States.
Oh my.
> The State Department has not yet imposed any restrictions, but
> officials are considering requiring shippers to provide documentation
> of ownership when moving goods from China to the United States.
> Chinese officials, who asked the State Department for the change in
> 2004, argue the rule is a way to protect China's cultural heritage and
> prevent the trafficking of stolen goods.
What planet are these people living on, Dave?
> Coin collectors and art dealers fear more than a receipt will be required.
> Instead, they expect to have to track an item's lineage under the new rule.
Out-freaking-rageous, Dave.
> That could dramatically scale back what is a growing, multimillion-dollar
> antiquities trade with Asia and foist an unmanageable amount of paperwork on
> small-business coin collectors, critics claim. Without the necessary
> paperwork, customs inspectors could seize the artifacts.
OMG. Are you panicking already, Dave?
> With this summer's Beijing Olympics drawing new attention to the
> relationship between the United States and China, opponents of the proposed
> rule worry State Department officials might grant the request as a
> diplomatic gift.
You may have to find a way to stop the Olympics then.....
> "China is making a big deal about the Olympics, and this would be a nice
> crumb to throw them," said Peter Tompa, of counsel to Bailey & Ehrenberg ,
> who represents several coin collector organizations in Washington.
He sounds a little patronising, don't you think, Dave?
> But archaeologists and historians have joined Chinese officials in pushing
> for the new restrictions. Looting of artifacts has become rampant in Asia,
> creating a booming black market for the goods.
All apart from the Kiwi freakwit that posted here recently, I take it.
> "First of all, it would reduce the financial incentives to loot an
> archaeological site," said Patty Gerstenblith, president of the Lawyers
> Committee for Cultural Heritage Preservation . "Secondly, the point of the
> restrictions would encourage more transparency of the trade by calling for
> more documentation."
You see what this means, Welshy? Barford was vindicated. A very sad state of affairs for all looters.
> But coin collectors and art dealers say the new restrictions would not curb
> the sale of stolen goods. The market for Chinese antiquities is much larger
> in that country than in the United States, so tamping down on shipments here
> would do little to stop looting, they believe.
But Yankee flim-flam will take a nosedive. It'll be back to the fishbowl.....
> Both sides, though, share a frustration with the State Department, which has
> yet to take an official position even though China first made the request in
> 2004. A State Department official said the request was still under review.
Some common ground albeit with a fence between them.
> Congress is keeping an eye on the administration as well. Sens. Kit Bond
> (R-Mo.) and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), whose constituents include art dealers
> and museums, wrote to the State Department expressing their concerns about
> the requested limits.
> "This restriction could put a huge dent in the U.S. market for Chinese
> antiquities," said James Fitzpatrick, senior partner at Arnold & Porter.
More like his pocket.
> Fitzpatrick represents J.J. Lally & Co. Oriental Art, which is based in New
> York City and is one of the major private dealers in Chinese antiquities.
Yes,...more like his pocket.
> Lally and major auction houses like Christie's and Sotheby's have taken
> issue with the pending restrictions, according to Schumer's correspondence
> with the State Department. And for good reason: The art market in China has
> taken off this century.
Read....looting is rampant. Isn't it Mr Kiwi "I got a sword real cheap. I'm actually preserving their heritage by taking it."
> For example, Sotheby's reported its Asian art sales had risen almost $438
> million from 2001 to 2007 - resulting in an annual growth rate of 29 percent
> according to its 2007 report with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
> Much of that can be credited to art from China.
Yeah. And we all know how the Chinese are good at copying things. Move over, Bulgaria!!!!!!
> Coins are a million-dollar business as well. On VCoins.com , a popular sales
> website for hobbyists, there are more than 72,000 ancient coins listed,
> worth more than $15 million.
> American coin collectors believe the State Department has already leveraged
> their interests in the name of international diplomacy. Many point to a
> State Department announcement in 2007 placing restrictions on the
> importation of ancient Cypriot coins into the United States.
When a buck is far more important than the cultural heritage of a nation, we all freaking lose. And apparently, it is.
> In the announcement, State Department officials thanked Cyprus profusely for
> its help with Americans fleeing Lebanon a year earlier.
> "It's not tit for tat. They can't trade off the interests of American people
> to earn favors overseas," said Wayne Sayles, executive director of the
> Ancient Coin Collector's Guild .
Oh yes they can, Mizder Sayles. (And he will by the looks of things).
> Sayles, Tompa and others have fought to get more information on what they
> contend is a secretive process on imposing the import restrictions.
Geez...these poor buggers are getting it from all sides now.
> The Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC) makes final recommendations
> to the State Department on the restrictions asked for by foreign
> governments, but many have had difficulty in obtaining documents from the
> panel.
Who are the "many"?
> Coin collectors sued the State Department after their Freedom of Information
> Act requests were denied. Just last week, the coin collectors' groups began
> to receive heavily redacted documents on the Cypriot request, but nothing on
> the Chinese one. They plan to contest that move by State, too.
In the normal course of events you'd think the Coin Collectors would have had an opportunity to put in a submission re. changes to import legislation. Did they? If so, where is it? Is it in the public domain? Doesn't say whether their efforts to sue were successful or not. Implied but not expressed.
> Bond, for one, hopes the matter will be resolved soon.
Don't we all.
> "I have longstanding concerns over the lack of transparency and openness in
> the State Department's cultural property decision-making process and the
> operations of [CPAC]," Bond said in a statement from his office.
Hmmm. Artefacts without proper documentation are pretty transparent too, non?
> "Federal agencies and advisory committees need to follow federal sunshine
> laws, and it would be disappointing if a lawsuit is required to make them do
> so," Bond said.
Yeah, so disappointing.
> Gerstenblith agreed that the State Department should release all the
> information it is required to. But she acknowledged that diplomacy can come
> into play in these decisions.
Yeah, it's all about diplomacy, love.
> "I don't think there is anything wrong in viewing a broader cultural
> diplomacy context for the U.S," said Gerstenblith. "The question is whether
> the preservation of our cultural heritage is worth it. I think it is."
You've lost me here. I thought this was about preserving other countries cultural heritage.
> Restrictions on artifacts in similar agreements between the United States
> and other countries have strengthened ties, according to Cindy Ho, president
> of Saving Antiquities For Everyone , a nonprofit group that advocates for
> the preservation of cultural heritage.
> For example, an agreement with the United States required El Salvador to
> rebuild its art museum. In addition, Italy extended its loan period of
> artifacts to American museums from six months to four years after an
> agreement reached with the United States.
Hmmmm. In both cases, America appears to have got what it wanted. I wonder who got the contract to rebuild the Art Museum?
> If China's request were granted, Ho believes there would be similar
> benefits.
Maybe less Chinese imports flooding the US marketplace?
> "Every day that goes by without an [agreement] is another day we are not
> doing everything we can to stop the plunder of China's cultural heritage,
> everyone's cultural heritage," said Ho.
Yep. Gotitinone.
Trevor.
> Coin collectors, art dealers fear restrictions on Chinese imports
Well,....I guess not, Dave.
> American coin collectors and art dealers say a rule under consideration at
> the State Department could dramatically decrease the importation of goods
> from China, crippling a booming antiquities market in the United States.
Oh my.
> The State Department has not yet imposed any restrictions, but
> officials are considering requiring shippers to provide documentation
> of ownership when moving goods from China to the United States.
> Chinese officials, who asked the State Department for the change in
> 2004, argue the rule is a way to protect China's cultural heritage and
> prevent the trafficking of stolen goods.
What planet are these people living on, Dave?
> Coin collectors and art dealers fear more than a receipt will be required.
> Instead, they expect to have to track an item's lineage under the new rule.
Out-freaking-
> That could dramatically scale back what is a growing, multimillion-
> antiquities trade with Asia and foist an unmanageable amount of paperwork on
> small-business coin collectors, critics claim. Without the necessary
> paperwork, customs inspectors could seize the artifacts.
OMG. Are you panicking already, Dave?
> With this summer's Beijing Olympics drawing new attention to the
> relationship between the United States and China, opponents of the proposed
> rule worry State Department officials might grant the request as a
> diplomatic gift.
You may have to find a way to stop the Olympics then.....
> "China is making a big deal about the Olympics, and this would be a nice
> crumb to throw them," said Peter Tompa, of counsel to Bailey & Ehrenberg ,
> who represents several coin collector organizations in Washington.
He sounds a little patronising, don't you think, Dave?
> But archaeologists and historians have joined Chinese officials in pushing
> for the new restrictions. Looting of artifacts has become rampant in Asia,
> creating a booming black market for the goods.
All apart from the Kiwi freakwit that posted here recently, I take it.
> "First of all, it would reduce the financial incentives to loot an
> archaeological site," said Patty Gerstenblith, president of the Lawyers
> Committee for Cultural Heritage Preservation . "Secondly, the point of the
> restrictions would encourage more transparency of the trade by calling for
> more documentation.
You see what this means, Welshy? Barford was vindicated. A very sad state of affairs for all looters.
> But coin collectors and art dealers say the new restrictions would not curb
> the sale of stolen goods. The market for Chinese antiquities is much larger
> in that country than in the United States, so tamping down on shipments here
> would do little to stop looting, they believe.
But Yankee flim-flam will take a nosedive. It'll be back to the fishbowl....
> Both sides, though, share a frustration with the State Department, which has
> yet to take an official position even though China first made the request in
> 2004. A State Department official said the request was still under review.
Some common ground albeit with a fence between them.
> Congress is keeping an eye on the administration as well. Sens. Kit Bond
> (R-Mo.) and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), whose constituents include art dealers
> and museums, wrote to the State Department expressing their concerns about
> the requested limits.
> "This restriction could put a huge dent in the U.S. market for Chinese
> antiquities,
More like his pocket.
> Fitzpatrick represents J.J. Lally & Co. Oriental Art, which is based in New
> York City and is one of the major private dealers in Chinese antiquities.
Yes,...more like his pocket.
> Lally and major auction houses like Christie's and Sotheby's have taken
> issue with the pending restrictions, according to Schumer's correspondence
> with the State Department. And for good reason: The art market in China has
> taken off this century.
Read....looting is rampant. Isn't it Mr Kiwi "I got a sword real cheap. I'm actually preserving their heritage by taking it."
> For example, Sotheby's reported its Asian art sales had risen almost $438
> million from 2001 to 2007 - resulting in an annual growth rate of 29 percent
> according to its 2007 report with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
> Much of that can be credited to art from China.
Yeah. And we all know how the Chinese are good at copying things. Move over, Bulgaria!!!!
> Coins are a million-dollar business as well. On VCoins.com , a popular sales
> website for hobbyists, there are more than 72,000 ancient coins listed,
> worth more than $15 million.
> American coin collectors believe the State Department has already leveraged
> their interests in the name of international diplomacy. Many point to a
> State Department announcement in 2007 placing restrictions on the
> importation of ancient Cypriot coins into the United States.
When a buck is far more important than the cultural heritage of a nation, we all freaking lose. And apparently, it is.
> In the announcement, State Department officials thanked Cyprus profusely for
> its help with Americans fleeing Lebanon a year earlier.
> "It's not tit for tat. They can't trade off the interests of American people
> to earn favors overseas," said Wayne Sayles, executive director of the
> Ancient Coin Collector's Guild .
Oh yes they can, Mizder Sayles. (And he will by the looks of things).
> Sayles, Tompa and others have fought to get more information on what they
> contend is a secretive process on imposing the import restrictions.
Geez...these poor buggers are getting it from all sides now.
> The Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC) makes final recommendations
> to the State Department on the restrictions asked for by foreign
> governments, but many have had difficulty in obtaining documents from the
> panel.
Who are the "many"?
> Coin collectors sued the State Department after their Freedom of Information
> Act requests were denied. Just last week, the coin collectors' groups began
> to receive heavily redacted documents on the Cypriot request, but nothing on
> the Chinese one. They plan to contest that move by State, too.
In the normal course of events you'd think the Coin Collectors would have had an opportunity to put in a submission re. changes to import legislation. Did they? If so, where is it? Is it in the public domain? Doesn't say whether their efforts to sue were successful or not. Implied but not expressed.
> Bond, for one, hopes the matter will be resolved soon.
Don't we all.
> "I have longstanding concerns over the lack of transparency and openness in
> the State Department's cultural property decision-making process and the
> operations of [CPAC]," Bond said in a statement from his office.
Hmmm. Artefacts without proper documentation are pretty transparent too, non?
> "Federal agencies and advisory committees need to follow federal sunshine
> laws, and it would be disappointing if a lawsuit is required to make them do
> so," Bond said.
Yeah, so disappointing.
> Gerstenblith agreed that the State Department should release all the
> information it is required to. But she acknowledged that diplomacy can come
> into play in these decisions.
Yeah, it's all about diplomacy, love.
> "I don't think there is anything wrong in viewing a broader cultural
> diplomacy context for the U.S," said Gerstenblith. "The question is whether
> the preservation of our cultural heritage is worth it. I think it is."
You've lost me here. I thought this was about preserving other countries cultural heritage.
> Restrictions on artifacts in similar agreements between the United States
> and other countries have strengthened ties, according to Cindy Ho, president
> of Saving Antiquities For Everyone , a nonprofit group that advocates for
> the preservation of cultural heritage.
> For example, an agreement with the United States required El Salvador to
> rebuild its art museum. In addition, Italy extended its loan period of
> artifacts to American museums from six months to four years after an
> agreement reached with the United States.
Hmmmm. In both cases, America appears to have got what it wanted. I wonder who got the contract to rebuild the Art Museum?
> If China's request were granted, Ho believes there would be similar
> benefits.
Maybe less Chinese imports flooding the US marketplace?
> "Every day that goes by without an [agreement] is another day we are not
> doing everything we can to stop the plunder of China's cultural heritage,
> everyone's cultural heritage," said Ho.
Yep. Gotitinone.
Trevor.
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