.."Read....looting is rampant. Isn't it Mr Kiwi "I got a sword real cheap. I'm actually preserving their heritage by taking it...."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Take a break from talking of Poms and Yanks and Kiwi's you wanker. I said something rather different that I will now spell out for you, unless you care to read my post again (I suggest this too).
What I did was quote Victor Choi in saying collectors can preserve Chinese artefacts. I would not state this unconditionally as that is a cheery view of the actual situation. In cases of insufficient rescue archaeology, the Three Gorges Dam being one contreversial example, this would be true. At other times sites are actively looted to supply demand and so this 'preservation' is more associated with 'destruction'. I am not unaware of the situation in my chosen area of study, and I dare say I know a damn lot more about the sites, the people and the mechanisms than you do. The initial flood of antiquties onto Western markets occured doing construction of railways in China in the early 20th century at which time archaeology was a new science. Chinese embraced archaeology and the first generations were Western trained.
In comparison to the railway then which cut through masses of ancient tombs we have this in the 21st century:
"... BEIJING (Reuters) - Chinese heritage officials are scrambling to save thousands of cultural relics dating back 3,000 years and threatened by a $25 billion project to pump water from the country's southern rivers to its arid north. The 1,300-km (800-mile) central route of the south-to-north water transfer project, scheduled to pump water from a major tributary of the Yangtze river to Beijing by 2010, cuts across the Yellow river plain -- the so-called "cradle of Chinese civilisation" dotted with ancient sites.With only three years left to complete the project, heritage workers had finished less than a third of their task, the Beijing News said. "Looking at it from our current excavations, whether in terms of quantity or quality, the relics along the (route) are far, far more valuable than those along the Three Gorges dam," Monday's Beijing News quoted Li Taoyuan, a senior archaeologist from central Hebei province, as saying. The 185-metre Three Gorges dam on the Yangtze river, China's longest, has inundated hundreds of cultural sites, along with some 116 towns in Hubei province and neighbouring Chongqing municipality. Junxian, a village in Danjiangkou city, at the southern extreme of the project, had "tens of thousands" of ancient tombs dating back to the Zhou Dynasty (1122-256 BC), Li said, indicating the scale of the task. ......"For the work involved excavating and protecting relics in the entire region (of the project), the time constraints defy imagination,........" Li said. Archaeologists were also competing against grave robbers, the paper quoted Yin Jiang, chief of Danjiangkou heritage bureau, as saying . "Some of the excavation tools these modern grave robbers use are even more advanced than archeologists', Yin said. ...."
Comparisons to the Three Gorges Dam are worrying, since the flash museums built by Chinese are a front for seriously under-resourced field work. Even before we had images of archaeologists abandoning excavations as water entered their pits it was said:
..."Salvage archaeology in the region has been impoverished; the initial budget of nearly two billion yuan ($250 million) for excavation and preservation was reduced to 300 million ($37.5 million), and only a small amount of that sum has been distributed to local authorities because government officials have been unable to decide which agency should administer the funds. Full articles documenting the Yangtze looting crisis are located on the International Rivers Network website.."
What I said about my purchase of a sword was firstly, I am a realist, after seeing the markets in China and the problems faced on the mainland I am not going to lose sleep over my influence on the situation even if I spent all my earning on buying artefacts. This is like thinking that by not smoking I am actually reducing the problem of chain smoking in Chinese populations. After dodging so many blobs of phlegm on the footpath and hearing "Haaaacckk!! Pfffft!" I can tell you this in not the case.
Secondly, since provenance cannot be preserved in all cases (I doubt anyone can claim otherwise) there is in fact much scientific information to be gather from the study of a material object via comparisons between those attributed to date & region with a good degree of certainty. i.e: what can be deduced by examining the manufacture, mass, and hafting method of a large selection of Hu-style arrowheads versus the Zhou-style arrowheads? A very crucial cultural trait for one thing reveals the Hu nomads of the north are related to the Scythian style assemblage of the Eurasian steppe. Surface studies, corrosion analysis and metallurgical examination all provide extra insight into an artefact.
This led to my third point, that collections of artefacts can be a resource when they are either made availible or in the possesion of people who wish to research rather than just use them to appreciate value. People collect for different reasons. I will research this bronze sword and produce writing in English when I have an article ready. The People Liberation has expressed an interest in publishing my work, on the condition it was translated in Chinese. I may well do so in future but both the dearth of information in Chinese and English has been made quite apparent to me. Do I therefore care what some dinky-collector thinks of me?
Nope. I hope to have left some contribution for interested people that will still remain long after you are rotting and stinking in the earth Trevor.
This is what I tried to communicate, and I hope not everyone is a thickie like you. I did not say "I preserve 'their' heritage by taking it" but I did say the collecting of artefacts is alive and well and it need not be a complete tragedy if it is approached in manner which can return something back.
Posted by: "ursa_one@bigpond.com" ursa_one@bigpond.com ursa_one
Wed May 28, 2008 7:46 am (PDT)
---- Dave Welsh <dwelsh46@cox.net > wrote:
> Coin collectors, art dealers fear restrictions on Chinese imports
Well,....I guess not, Dave.
> American coin collectors and art dealers say a rule under consideration at
> the State Department could dramatically decrease the importation of goods
> from China, crippling a booming antiquities market in the United States.
Oh my.
> The State Department has not yet imposed any restrictions, but
> officials are considering requiring shippers to provide documentation
> of ownership when moving goods from China to the United States.
> Chinese officials, who asked the State Department for the change in
> 2004, argue the rule is a way to protect China's cultural heritage and
> prevent the trafficking of stolen goods.
What planet are these people living on, Dave?
> Coin collectors and art dealers fear more than a receipt will be required.
> Instead, they expect to have to track an item's lineage under the new rule.
Out-freaking-rageous, Dave.
> That could dramatically scale back what is a growing, multimillion-dollar
> antiquities trade with Asia and foist an unmanageable amount of paperwork on
> small-business coin collectors, critics claim. Without the necessary
> paperwork, customs inspectors could seize the artifacts.
OMG. Are you panicking already, Dave?
> With this summer's Beijing Olympics drawing new attention to the
> relationship between the United States and China, opponents of the proposed
> rule worry State Department officials might grant the request as a
> diplomatic gift.
You may have to find a way to stop the Olympics then.....
> "China is making a big deal about the Olympics, and this would be a nice
> crumb to throw them," said Peter Tompa, of counsel to Bailey & Ehrenberg ,
> who represents several coin collector organizations in Washington.
He sounds a little patronising, don't you think, Dave?
> But archaeologists and historians have joined Chinese officials in pushing
> for the new restrictions. Looting of artifacts has become rampant in Asia,
> creating a booming black market for the goods.
All apart from the Kiwi freakwit that posted here recently, I take it.
> "First of all, it would reduce the financial incentives to loot an
> archaeological site," said Patty Gerstenblith, president of the Lawyers
> Committee for Cultural Heritage Preservation . "Secondly, the point of the
> restrictions would encourage more transparency of the trade by calling for
> more documentation."
You see what this means, Welshy? Barford was vindicated. A very sad state of affairs for all looters.
> But coin collectors and art dealers say the new restrictions would not curb
> the sale of stolen goods. The market for Chinese antiquities is much larger
> in that country than in the United States, so tamping down on shipments here
> would do little to stop looting, they believe.
But Yankee flim-flam will take a nosedive. It'll be back to the fishbowl.....
> Both sides, though, share a frustration with the State Department, which has
> yet to take an official position even though China first made the request in
> 2004. A State Department official said the request was still under review.
Some common ground albeit with a fence between them.
> Congress is keeping an eye on the administration as well. Sens. Kit Bond
> (R-Mo.) and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), whose constituents include art dealers
> and museums, wrote to the State Department expressing their concerns about
> the requested limits.
> "This restriction could put a huge dent in the U.S. market for Chinese
> antiquities," said James Fitzpatrick, senior partner at Arnold & Porter.
More like his pocket.
> Fitzpatrick represents J.J. Lally & Co. Oriental Art, which is based in New
> York City and is one of the major private dealers in Chinese antiquities.
Yes,...more like his pocket.
> Lally and major auction houses like Christie's and Sotheby's have taken
> issue with the pending restrictions, according to Schumer's correspondence
> with the State Department. And for good reason: The art market in China has
> taken off this century.
Read....looting is rampant. Isn't it Mr Kiwi "I got a sword real cheap. I'm actually preserving their heritage by taking it."
> For example, Sotheby's reported its Asian art sales had risen almost $438
> million from 2001 to 2007 - resulting in an annual growth rate of 29 percent
> according to its 2007 report with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
> Much of that can be credited to art from China.
Yeah. And we all know how the Chinese are good at copying things. Move over, Bulgaria!!!!!!
> Coins are a million-dollar business as well. On VCoins.com , a popular sales
> website for hobbyists, there are more than 72,000 ancient coins listed,
> worth more than $15 million.
> American coin collectors believe the State Department has already leveraged
> their interests in the name of international diplomacy. Many point to a
> State Department announcement in 2007 placing restrictions on the
> importation of ancient Cypriot coins into the United States.
When a buck is far more important than the cultural heritage of a nation, we all freaking lose. And apparently, it is.
> In the announcement, State Department officials thanked Cyprus profusely for
> its help with Americans fleeing Lebanon a year earlier.
> "It's not tit for tat. They can't trade off the interests of American people
> to earn favors overseas," said Wayne Sayles, executive director of the
> Ancient Coin Collector's Guild .
Oh yes they can, Mizder Sayles. (And he will by the looks of things).
> Sayles, Tompa and others have fought to get more information on what they
> contend is a secretive process on imposing the import restrictions.
Geez...these poor buggers are getting it from all sides now.
> The Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC) makes final recommendations
> to the State Department on the restrictions asked for by foreign
> governments, but many have had difficulty in obtaining documents from the
> panel.
Who are the "many"?
> Coin collectors sued the State Department after their Freedom of Information
> Act requests were denied. Just last week, the coin collectors' groups began
> to receive heavily redacted documents on the Cypriot request, but nothing on
> the Chinese one. They plan to contest that move by State, too.
In the normal course of events you'd think the Coin Collectors would have had an opportunity to put in a submission re. changes to import legislation. Did they? If so, where is it? Is it in the public domain? Doesn't say whether their efforts to sue were successful or not. Implied but not expressed.
> Bond, for one, hopes the matter will be resolved soon.
Don't we all.
> "I have longstanding concerns over the lack of transparency and openness in
> the State Department's cultural property decision-making process and the
> operations of [CPAC]," Bond said in a statement from his office.
Hmmm. Artefacts without proper documentation are pretty transparent too, non?
> "Federal agencies and advisory committees need to follow federal sunshine
> laws, and it would be disappointing if a lawsuit is required to make them do
> so," Bond said.
Yeah, so disappointing.
> Gerstenblith agreed that the State Department should release all the
> information it is required to. But she acknowledged that diplomacy can come
> into play in these decisions.
Yeah, it's all about diplomacy, love.
> "I don't think there is anything wrong in viewing a broader cultural
> diplomacy context for the U.S," said Gerstenblith. "The question is whether
> the preservation of our cultural heritage is worth it. I think it is."
You've lost me here. I thought this was about preserving other countries cultural heritage.
> Restrictions on artifacts in similar agreements between the United States
> and other countries have strengthened ties, according to Cindy Ho, president
> of Saving Antiquities For Everyone , a nonprofit group that advocates for
> the preservation of cultural heritage.
> For example, an agreement with the United States required El Salvador to
> rebuild its art museum. In addition, Italy extended its loan period of
> artifacts to American museums from six months to four years after an
> agreement reached with the United States.
Hmmmm. In both cases, America appears to have got what it wanted. I wonder who got the contract to rebuild the Art Museum?
> If China's request were granted, Ho believes there would be similar
> benefits.
Maybe less Chinese imports flooding the US marketplace?
> "Every day that goes by without an [agreement] is another day we are not
> doing everything we can to stop the plunder of China's cultural heritage,
> everyone's cultural heritage," said Ho.
Yep. Gotitinone.
Trevor.
> Coin collectors, art dealers fear restrictions on Chinese imports
Well,....I guess not, Dave.
> American coin collectors and art dealers say a rule under consideration at
> the State Department could dramatically decrease the importation of goods
> from China, crippling a booming antiquities market in the United States.
Oh my.
> The State Department has not yet imposed any restrictions, but
> officials are considering requiring shippers to provide documentation
> of ownership when moving goods from China to the United States.
> Chinese officials, who asked the State Department for the change in
> 2004, argue the rule is a way to protect China's cultural heritage and
> prevent the trafficking of stolen goods.
What planet are these people living on, Dave?
> Coin collectors and art dealers fear more than a receipt will be required.
> Instead, they expect to have to track an item's lineage under the new rule.
Out-freaking-
> That could dramatically scale back what is a growing, multimillion-
> antiquities trade with Asia and foist an unmanageable amount of paperwork on
> small-business coin collectors, critics claim. Without the necessary
> paperwork, customs inspectors could seize the artifacts.
OMG. Are you panicking already, Dave?
> With this summer's Beijing Olympics drawing new attention to the
> relationship between the United States and China, opponents of the proposed
> rule worry State Department officials might grant the request as a
> diplomatic gift.
You may have to find a way to stop the Olympics then.....
> "China is making a big deal about the Olympics, and this would be a nice
> crumb to throw them," said Peter Tompa, of counsel to Bailey & Ehrenberg ,
> who represents several coin collector organizations in Washington.
He sounds a little patronising, don't you think, Dave?
> But archaeologists and historians have joined Chinese officials in pushing
> for the new restrictions. Looting of artifacts has become rampant in Asia,
> creating a booming black market for the goods.
All apart from the Kiwi freakwit that posted here recently, I take it.
> "First of all, it would reduce the financial incentives to loot an
> archaeological site," said Patty Gerstenblith, president of the Lawyers
> Committee for Cultural Heritage Preservation . "Secondly, the point of the
> restrictions would encourage more transparency of the trade by calling for
> more documentation.
You see what this means, Welshy? Barford was vindicated. A very sad state of affairs for all looters.
> But coin collectors and art dealers say the new restrictions would not curb
> the sale of stolen goods. The market for Chinese antiquities is much larger
> in that country than in the United States, so tamping down on shipments here
> would do little to stop looting, they believe.
But Yankee flim-flam will take a nosedive. It'll be back to the fishbowl....
> Both sides, though, share a frustration with the State Department, which has
> yet to take an official position even though China first made the request in
> 2004. A State Department official said the request was still under review.
Some common ground albeit with a fence between them.
> Congress is keeping an eye on the administration as well. Sens. Kit Bond
> (R-Mo.) and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), whose constituents include art dealers
> and museums, wrote to the State Department expressing their concerns about
> the requested limits.
> "This restriction could put a huge dent in the U.S. market for Chinese
> antiquities,
More like his pocket.
> Fitzpatrick represents J.J. Lally & Co. Oriental Art, which is based in New
> York City and is one of the major private dealers in Chinese antiquities.
Yes,...more like his pocket.
> Lally and major auction houses like Christie's and Sotheby's have taken
> issue with the pending restrictions, according to Schumer's correspondence
> with the State Department. And for good reason: The art market in China has
> taken off this century.
Read....looting is rampant. Isn't it Mr Kiwi "I got a sword real cheap. I'm actually preserving their heritage by taking it."
> For example, Sotheby's reported its Asian art sales had risen almost $438
> million from 2001 to 2007 - resulting in an annual growth rate of 29 percent
> according to its 2007 report with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
> Much of that can be credited to art from China.
Yeah. And we all know how the Chinese are good at copying things. Move over, Bulgaria!!!!
> Coins are a million-dollar business as well. On VCoins.com , a popular sales
> website for hobbyists, there are more than 72,000 ancient coins listed,
> worth more than $15 million.
> American coin collectors believe the State Department has already leveraged
> their interests in the name of international diplomacy. Many point to a
> State Department announcement in 2007 placing restrictions on the
> importation of ancient Cypriot coins into the United States.
When a buck is far more important than the cultural heritage of a nation, we all freaking lose. And apparently, it is.
> In the announcement, State Department officials thanked Cyprus profusely for
> its help with Americans fleeing Lebanon a year earlier.
> "It's not tit for tat. They can't trade off the interests of American people
> to earn favors overseas," said Wayne Sayles, executive director of the
> Ancient Coin Collector's Guild .
Oh yes they can, Mizder Sayles. (And he will by the looks of things).
> Sayles, Tompa and others have fought to get more information on what they
> contend is a secretive process on imposing the import restrictions.
Geez...these poor buggers are getting it from all sides now.
> The Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC) makes final recommendations
> to the State Department on the restrictions asked for by foreign
> governments, but many have had difficulty in obtaining documents from the
> panel.
Who are the "many"?
> Coin collectors sued the State Department after their Freedom of Information
> Act requests were denied. Just last week, the coin collectors' groups began
> to receive heavily redacted documents on the Cypriot request, but nothing on
> the Chinese one. They plan to contest that move by State, too.
In the normal course of events you'd think the Coin Collectors would have had an opportunity to put in a submission re. changes to import legislation. Did they? If so, where is it? Is it in the public domain? Doesn't say whether their efforts to sue were successful or not. Implied but not expressed.
> Bond, for one, hopes the matter will be resolved soon.
Don't we all.
> "I have longstanding concerns over the lack of transparency and openness in
> the State Department's cultural property decision-making process and the
> operations of [CPAC]," Bond said in a statement from his office.
Hmmm. Artefacts without proper documentation are pretty transparent too, non?
> "Federal agencies and advisory committees need to follow federal sunshine
> laws, and it would be disappointing if a lawsuit is required to make them do
> so," Bond said.
Yeah, so disappointing.
> Gerstenblith agreed that the State Department should release all the
> information it is required to. But she acknowledged that diplomacy can come
> into play in these decisions.
Yeah, it's all about diplomacy, love.
> "I don't think there is anything wrong in viewing a broader cultural
> diplomacy context for the U.S," said Gerstenblith. "The question is whether
> the preservation of our cultural heritage is worth it. I think it is."
You've lost me here. I thought this was about preserving other countries cultural heritage.
> Restrictions on artifacts in similar agreements between the United States
> and other countries have strengthened ties, according to Cindy Ho, president
> of Saving Antiquities For Everyone , a nonprofit group that advocates for
> the preservation of cultural heritage.
> For example, an agreement with the United States required El Salvador to
> rebuild its art museum. In addition, Italy extended its loan period of
> artifacts to American museums from six months to four years after an
> agreement reached with the United States.
Hmmmm. In both cases, America appears to have got what it wanted. I wonder who got the contract to rebuild the Art Museum?
> If China's request were granted, Ho believes there would be similar
> benefits.
Maybe less Chinese imports flooding the US marketplace?
> "Every day that goes by without an [agreement] is another day we are not
> doing everything we can to stop the plunder of China's cultural heritage,
> everyone's cultural heritage," said Ho.
Yep. Gotitinone.
Trevor.
This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communication or disclose anything about it. Thank you. Please note that this communication does not designate an information system for the purposes of the Electronic Transactions Act 2002.__._,_.___
Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__,_._,___
