> Readers of the AncientArtifacts list have recently indicated how unhappy
> they are with many posts that have appearedlately in that list. Paul Barford
> and his fellow traveler Trevor have been mentioned as the originators of
> some of the most objectionable messages.
Really? Post me a couple, off-list.
You obviously haven't been reading your "colleague" Kenneth's comments. I have been verbally abused and even threatened with violence......right here.
> I ask that our long-suffering list readers take just a moment to understand
> who began this intensely disagreeable and wearisome controversy, and who are
> those presently stoking the flames.
It's called debate and if you don't understand dry humour, that is not my problem. You also bandy about the notion of free speech yet right now it doesn't seem to work for you, does it? You are suggesting censorship of views you disagree with.
> Prior to 1970 there was no public controversy regarding antiquities
> collecting. Objections to this time-honored avocation were mostly confined
Time honoured avocation? Give me a break.
> to a relatively small number of radical archaeologists (led by Colin
> Renfrew) and cultural preservation interests, notable those of "source
> states" in Latin America, Africa and other underdeveloped countries whose
> citizens had no objection to exporting old cultural artifacts for money.
And as for your previous statement that numismatics is older than archaeology, I tend to disagree. Though we don't know exactly what was kept in the three great libraries of the classical world, I doubt they were solely concerned with coin collecting. You've heard of Herodotus, I take it? If coinage was first minted in the 7th century BC and Herodotus wrote in the 4th century BC, that only leaves you 300 years give or take to play with.....if indeed you have an valid case at all.
> In these days of cultural peace, collectors and antiquities dealers were
> significant supporters of the archaeological community, and often donated
> generously to help start or sustain archaeological expeditions. I did so
> myself, and my contribution (according to the leader of the project, who
> read my letter to the expedition staff) was helpful in keeping interest
> going during the most difficult times of the Mary Rose project.
>
> In 1970 a very divisive international convention (the UNESCO Convention) was
> promulgated, and since then things have never been the same. Collectors and
> the antiquities dealer community on the one hand, and archaeologists,
> cultural authorities and allied academics on the other hand, are literally
> at war with each other. It is a cold war - so far no one is shooting at each
> other - but one that is nevertheless deadly serious. I fear that it will
> turn out to be like the Israel-Palestinian conflict, an uncompromising clash
> of ideology that can only be settled by force majeure and will go on almost
> indefinitely.
Yes, while the sovereign rights of nations are acknowledged and laws are created to protect their cultural heritage. You are definitely on the losing team in this regard. You really do need to understand that, quite frankly.
> If the so-called preservation lobby would simply accept the status quo, and
> agree that collectors and dealers have a right to an open licit market to
> provide antiquities to collectors, there would be no controversy and
> everyone involved could direct their efforts toward working in harmony to
> reform and clean up the antiquities trade.
> The preservation lobby does not
> want to settle for that. Instead, they intend to work for the abolition of
> the antiquities trade and of antiquities collecting.
I disagree. What are you doing to prevent the looting of archaeological material?
> That really is their
> ultimate objective, they are working very hard and intelligently at it, and
> they have powerful allies in academia and in various governmental bureaus
> and ministries.
See above re. sovereign nations. It's not about "power" at all.
> It's quite clear to me that this unrelenting assault upon collecting, this
> unjustifiable blackguarding of collectors and dealers with the most
> misleading doublespeak and linguistic misdirection since the heyday of Josef
> Goebbels, is driven by radical socialist ideology (all artifacts belong to
> the State) not by realistic practical considerations. Everyone would be far
> better off if the effort involved had been cooperatively directed toward
> concrete measures directed at the causes of antiquities looting and
> smuggling,
You really don't have a clue, do you Dave?
> not the unrealistic fantasies of archaeologists and academics who
> do not understand the antiquites trade, nor the views and concerns of those
> doing the looting.
The "views and concerns of those doing the looting"? Will you be their mouthpiece then?
> So when you see the next round of posts on this unwelcome topic, please
> remember that collectors and dealers are not those stoking the flames -
> Baford & Co. are doing that. We are their very unwilling victims, and all we
> are attempting to do is to defend ourselves. When they stop this
> unreasonable, unjustified and unproductive attack, the controversy will
> immediately end.
What's this then? Boot on the other foot for a change? I don't consider what I say here to be unreasonable, unjustified or unproductive. What this debate has highlighted is the almost total disregard, by some, for the cultural heritage of sovereign nations. Mostly, it appears, through ignorance or a sense that they will lose an income.
I collect antiques but not antiquities. The only antiquities I have are a small collection of coins. There is, as you are almost certainly aware, a brisk trade in antiques. That trade has few of the problems outlined in this debate bar the passing off of reproductions as original pieces.
Your views suggest short term profit and long term loss.
Trevor.
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