----- Original Message -----From: letitflyantiques1Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:16 AMSubject: [Ancientartifacts] Re: Guidelines for responsible collectingRolf,
Only because you took a swipe at me, I will swing back. I know you
are considered some sort of demi-god on here so any response will be
unpopular.
I am not all that impressed with your "provenances." Can you state
with certainty that everthing on your website was excavated 100% by
the letter and spirit of the law of the source country? And exported
by the same standards. Can you give a meaningful paper trail for each
item with meaningful descriptors such as exact measurements, weights,
photographs, etc. to prove that the item matches the paperwork?
A lot of your inventory has the vague provenances that I find
ridiculous, misleading and, in this instance, even hypocritical. You
often say "from an old UK collection or ex. private collection UK."
So what? That does not mean it was legally excavated or legally
exported. It may just mean that it was looted a in 1975 and has been
in an old collection since. What defines an old collection? The
statement "from an old collection" is meaningless verbage and does
nothing to establish a legal claim of export or ownership. If the
object is Egyptian, was the "old collection" completely formed before
1970 and can you document that claim with precision?
You must not even know who the collectors were that formed these
numerous "Old German" and "Old English" collections or you would
certainly put that in the description for the benefit of potential
buyers. If you can't even name the collector, what makes you so
certain that these objects are any cleaner than the little things I
buy from metal detectorists? If you can't even name the collector,
you certainly can't claim any knowledge of the collector's buying
habits or ethics so you really don't know a damn thing about the
legality of the item you are selling. At least I am up front about
this problem.
A good deal of your Egyptian antiquities say "old collection,
acquired 1970's-1980's." So which was it, 1970's or 80's? You
obviously don't have a clue as to exactly when the piece was dug and
exported from Egypt or you would state an exact date and not a vague
range. If it was 1970 or later, the legality is problematic; if it
was post 1983, it is illegal. So this provenance is as meaningless as
the COA's and "documentation" I get and throw out so I won't mislead
my buyers with made up stories.
Your Egyptian beads and Danubian cup, among many other items, claim
no provenance so I guess you think that legal excavation and export
only applies to pricier items. Do you not realize that it does not
matter if a looter finds a gold necklace or just a few of your
Egyptian beads, the site is still destroyed for arcehological
purposes? At least I know with that my little metal items are surface
finds without context; someone had to dig a hole to loot your cup.
Don't climb up on your moral high horse with me. Your inventory is no
cleaner, and probably a lot dirtier, than mine. The difference is I
don't play word games and hide behind 'From an old UK collection"
nonsense.
SGM
-- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups. , "rolf5568"com
<heliosgallery@...> wrote:
>
> Well, the people who told me that this was the wrong place for a
> constructive debate on modern collecting were right. Its a pity
that
> the intelligent comments and criticisms which have been made by
some
> members are utterly obliterated and therefore wasted by the
> irrelevant rants of others. I thought that this debate could be
> inclusive so that the broadest possible range of collectors,
dealers
> and academics could be heard but this has sadly proven impossible
> here.
>
> A change in attitude to collecting is not something alien or
> ethereal, its already happening, and anyone unwilling or unable to
> understand it will simply be left behind, put out of business or
see
> their collection devalued over the coming decades.
>
> I have no interest in upholding the interests of the dealers or
> collectors who are not willing to address the impact of illicit
> excavation, and it seems that many of these short-sighted dinosaurs
> who will trade in smuggled/stolen/illicit antiquities are to be
found
> here. As I've said before, this was an idea intended to set broad-
> based standards which people can then apply or ignore as they wish;
> life's too short to explain the many reasons again and if some
> members are too simple to understand self-preservation I suggest
they
> visit a library and ask for a copy of The Origin Of Species.
>
>
> If you want ten-dollar-artifacts which have been illegally exported
> (stolen) then you can shop at Steve M.'s place: the stuff looks
both
> genuine and cheap. If smuggling, theft and fakes are not a
> consideration in your collection I'd recommend you shop at
> Artemission, Eftis, Sadigh & 100's of other low-life scum set-ups
> spouted by the internet and ebay. Just don't claim to give a hoot
> about culture and don't expect to be able to sell the stuff in 10
or
> 20 years time.
>
> Without action from the collecting/trading community our shared
> interests will become the subject of further legislation, of that
> there is no doubt to anyone who bothers to read up on the subject
and
> the idea of clinging to the "status quo" is optimistic if not
> downright absurd. As an ADA member and "white elitist" with a
> advantageous educational background including a degree in
archaeology
> I may just get a dealing license in the new system... but if I do,
I
> won't be buying anything without a provenance and nor will anyone
> else. Go figure....
>
> Please, try to make sense of a set of responsible guidelines with
an
> agreed balance or the matter will simply be taken out of your
hands.
> That's democracy in action, so let's not bark about civil liberties!
>
> Rolf
>
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