RE: [Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA. Fakes v other errors.

HI There,
 
Yeah good point, I understand the difference between the fakie dealers and unethical. I hope there is a good outcome because it just makes you think twice about the different variables of bad dealers... fakes OR unethical if something legitimate is found and bought to the attention of the dealer involved.
 
Cheers
Kelly



To: Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com
From: rsdeheredia@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:12:09 +0000
Subject: [Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA. Fakes v other errors.

I know, Stephen. My post was an answer to that of Kelly Thomas.
Ramon Saenz de Heredia
PS. I reiterate I am open to discuss the dealers to avoid list.I will
propose a few names on
Monday.
In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Churley <churley482@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Ramon,
> I am not suggesting that Passage to Antiquity should go on the list
of dealers who sell fakes. But I am suggesting that if Ernie Krumbein
persists in refusing to even acknowledge that the jug may be more
restored that his COA described and in refusing to give me a refund
if that is indeed true, then he does not deserve to be on the List of
Good Dealers - a list he compiled himself! He deserves to be in
limbo, on neither list.
> Cheers, Stephen
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ramon Jr <rsdeheredia@...>
> To: Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 8:34:10 AM
> Subject: [Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA. Fakes
v other errors.
>
>
> Correction. Please read unethical dealers.
> Ramon Saenz de Heredia
> In Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com, "Ramon Jr"
<rsdeheredia@ ...>
> wrote:
> >
> > HI.
> > The dealers to avoid list includes sellers who sell
> > FAKES. And as I have posted often not the accidental fake.
> > If it included the latter you would find there two dealers
> > mentioned yesterday : Harlan J. Berk and Gorny and Mosch.
> > ( And many others.)
> > There is quite a distance between a forgery and a misdescription.
> > Be it of a restoration. And if fakes occasionally pass even
expert
> > dealers,why not a restoration. The question of refunds is
ethical,
> and
> > I am sure Ernie (he has the right to intervene) will refund.
> > If any one wants to open a list of ethical dealers ,OK with me.
> > I will participate. I would propose that to go into the list
> > you need a third strike.
> > Ramon Saenz de Heredia
> >
> > --- In Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa and Kelly
> > <v8vibr8a@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Well...
> > >
> > > As a newbie that is an absolute showstopper. Doesn't it just
make
> > you cast your mind back to where dealers that are on that avoid
> > dealers list are fighting for themselves and being shot down on
> this
> > group and yet one of the most knowledgeable (from this point of
> view)
> > is falling short of the mark.
> > >
> > > Shame on you Ernie. Do the right thing, there must be some sort
> of
> > compromise.
> > >
> > > Kelly Thomas
> > > New Zealand
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: Ancientartifacts@ : churley482@: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:58:29 -
> > 0700Subject: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor
COA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I can now report that the seller of the jug is none other than
> > Ernie Krumbein of Passage to Antiquity. The very person who has
> > compiled the 'List of Good Dealers' for this Group. How ironic!
In
> > light of what I have said already, and latest developments, I
would
> > like his company to be removed from the 'List of Good Dealers'.
Or
> > perhaps a new list should be compiled of "So-called good dealers
> with
> > meaningless COAs".
> > >
> > > I gave Ernie a number of options:
> > >
> > > (a) give me a full refund of $500 for the jug (as per his COA);
> > >
> > > (b) I try to sell the piece on eBay and if it sells he refunds
me
> > the balance up to $500;
> > >
> > > (c) he categorically refuses to give me a refund.
> > >
> > > Ernie has chosen (c) sadly. He has also refused to tell me
> whether
> > or not he believes the jug has more restoration than his COA
> states;
> > and he has refused Rolf's offer to look at the jug to give a
second
> > opinion on it.
> > >
> > > All Ernie says is that because I have "altered" the jug by
using
> a
> > tiny bit of acetone, he will not offer me a refund. He has not
> asked
> > to see a picture of the jug to see if it now looks different. And
> his
> > COA does not state that the slightest test on the piece will
> > invalidate the guarantee.
> > >
> > > I know very well that dealers do test pieces with acetone to
see
> > whether the surface is original or restored. I have done so with
> some
> > pieces I have bought from other delears - dealers who deserve to
be
> > on the 'List of Good Dealers' - and on the rare occasion that the
> > surface is not original I have obtained a full refund.
> > >
> > > So would the modifiers of the Group please accept this email as
> my
> > formal request to have Passage to Antiquity removed from
the "List
> of
> > Good Sellers".
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Stephen Churley
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----From: David K. <romulus2x@> To:
> > Ancientartifacts@ : Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:32:41 PMSubject:
> > [Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA
> > >
> > > Hi Stephen,Then you have a clear case of misdescribed goods. I
> hope
> > the seller honours their obligations. David K.--- In
> Ancientartifacts@
> > yahoogroups. com, Stephen Churley <churley482@ ...> wrote:>> Hi
> > David,> Thanks. In this case I don't think it would be fair to
> > stretch the word "around" too far because the area I am
questioning
> > is indeed the main body of the pot, not the areas immediately
> > adjacent to the junction of the handle and neck with the body. >
> > Cheers, Stephen> > > ----- Original Message ----> From: David K.
> > <romulus2x@ ..>> To: Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com> Sent:
> > Thursday, June 5, 2008 6:58:05 PM> Subject: [Ancientartifacts]
> > Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA> > > Hi Stephen,> Just a comment
on
> > the linguistics ....> If the COA had stated "the handle and neck
> have
> > been restored" the situation would be clear since those would be
> the
> > *only* areas to have been restored. But the wording "has been
> > restored *around* the handle and neck ..." is more ambiguous and
> > could be taken to mean not the handle and neck themselves but the
> > areas of the pot immediately adjacent to them, i.e. the body of
the
> > pot.> However, from what you say, it sounds as if the restoration
> > extends well away from just those areas - so the COA was wrong.>
In
> > any case, having said all that, if I was the dealer I would
simply
> > accept that the customer was not happy and refund.> David K.>
> > http://www.romulus2 .com/henjack/ >
> http://www.romulus2 .com/lamps/>
> > > > --- In Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com, Stephen Churley
> > <churley482@ ..> wrote:> >> > Hi Ramon,> > The COA mentions that
> the
> > piece "has been restored around the handle and neck and is in
> > extremely good condition". But it appears there is also
restoration
> > to the main body of the pot as well. I have tested small areas of
> the
> > piece with acetone and the red surface (which is supposed to be
> > burnished) comes off easily from both the restored and unrestored
> > areas. I have other red burnished pieces of similar age and
culture
> > (4500 years old from the Middle East) which I have tested with
> > acetone and the burnish does not readily come off. > > I would
> rather
> > not circulate a picture at this stage because if I reveal too
much
> > about the piece members of the Group may be able to identify the
> > seller. I would prefer to keep the seller anonymous at this
stage.
> >
> > > Cheers, > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Ramon
> Jr
> > rsdeheredia@ ...> > To: Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com> >
Sent:
> > Thursday, June 5, 2008 4:21:42 PM> > Subject: [Ancientartifacts]
> > Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA> > > > > > Is "extremely good"
the
> > only mention to condition?.> > Or does COA mention restorations,
as
> > you seem to imply.> > "I have discovered that the pot is more
> > restored that his COA > > described.." > > And to what degree.> >
A
> > pic in photos section would be nice.> > Ramon Saenz de Heredia>
> --
>
> > In Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com, Stephen Churley > >
> > <churley482@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Hi everyone,> > > I am having
a
> > problem with a piece of ancient pottery which I > > bought last
> year
> > from a dealer who is on the 'good' list and who is a > > regular
> > contributor to this Group. I will refrain from giving his > >
name
> > for the time being. > > > I have discovered that the pot is more
> > restored that his COA > > described. His COA has a 'Description'
> > section setting out the age > > and culture of the piece and also
> its
> > condition which is said to > > be 'extremely good'. The COA also
> > says:> > > "I guarantee that to the best of my knowledge and
belief
> > the above > > described antiquity is authentic and from the
period
> > given. Should > > this piece ever be shown to be other than as
> > described we will gladly > > refund the full purchase price."> >
>
> > The seller is refusing to refund my money on the grounds that the
>
> >
> > COA's description refers solely to authenticity not to condition.
> But
> > > > the 'Description' section does also refer to condition. > > >
> It
> > seems to me that condition cannot be dissociated from > >
> > authenticity here. If the seller had intended to do this he would
>
> >
> > have had a separate section in the COA entitled 'Condition'. > >
>
> > Either the COA is a serious document to be taken at face value or
>
> >
> > not. This seller appears to be dodging his responsibilities. > >
> >
> > I would value your opinions and advice. > > > Cheers, > > >
Stephen
> > Churley> > >> >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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> > >
> >
>




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