[Ancientartifacts] Re: Bronze idol

Hello Robert, of you see again at


I0ve added two terracotta idols, one with head broken and other
no...and of this type there are many many copies at european auction
house...or are all fake or are not so extramely rare to find
intact...I refer to this type however.

For bronze idol I think it is really an idol, in fact from photo is
not too clear but the botton is round finished, is not broken as the
pin missing. I've attacched some bronze pin heads and cosmetic
applicator...are the completely different and are smaller.

I've attacched image of another bronze idol with snake, also this has
the head attacched (also if it is attacched by alloy...I don't have
the reference for this method...that is "Bronze foundation cones of
Goudea and Isin Larsa"...if you have this please send me a copy of
the reference..!)

--- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kokotailo
<robert@...> wrote:
> > Date: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:21 pm ((PDT)) Andrea wrote :
> >
> >Hello, mine
> >http://tinyurl.com/5owg7x
> >
> >is broken...but I think the brokerage is modern...not
> >ancient...because the patina is continuos..!
> >
> >Tis is surely bronze bird node idol, Baal.
> This appears to be genuine, but I doubt it is an Idol. There are a
> number of possibilities for it's use, but the one I fine most
> is a cosmetics applicator missing it's lower most portion.
> There is a bit of a range in the decorations that can be on the top
> of these, but to understand what they are and how they were used,
> the following reference for one with the cosmetics jar it fits
into :
> LADDERS TO HEAVEN (art treasures of the lands of the bible) edited
> Oscar White Muscarella and published by McClelland and Stewart for
> the Royal Ontario Museum, 1981.
> The example they show has an horned demon head, which they date to
> Mesopotamia or Iran 3rd to first half of the 2nd millennium BC,
> consistent with the style of your object.
> The reason I suspect it might be one of these cosmetics applicators
> is the way it narrows just before the bottom, in exactly the place
> should to fit into the cosmetics jar. But it would mean there is
> about 3 to 4 inches missing below that narrowing.
> The example that posted that started this, I have serious
> reservations about it's authenticity for several reasons.
> 1) I can find no parallel to it in any reference I have available
> me. That is not by any means enough to condemn it, as while I have
> good libary I do not have every reference, but does raise concerns
> for me. There is a very good discussion of the "bird headed" idols
> in the reference above and it makes no reference to bronze examples
> 2) I believe I see evidence of mold line removal marks down the
> sides, with the mold marks being cleaned up after casting. If that
> is what is visible on the actual object, it is very un-likely it
> made in the period in which it would have to date.
> 3) The body form and arms imitates the idols found in northern
> around 1900 to 1750 BC (see the reference above, page 236 images
> and 207). The look of the metal and the way the patination formed
> inconsistent with items of that period. They were of a less stable
> bronze and tend to have much rougher surfaces like those on the
> figure that Andrea posted.
> 3) The bottom 2/3 of the figure is clearly female (hips and groin
> area). But the head has a beard, military style helmet with neck
> protector, and so is the head is of a male warrior figure. This
> of male (remember it has a beard) and female on one figure makes
> sense to me relative to the period it comes from.
> 4) When viewed from the side, the jugging head is very
> clumsy. Figures of this period may be crude or a little primitive
> (again by our standards) but they are never clumsy.
> In my opinion, it is probably of relative modern
> manufacture. Certainly no older than a grand tour object of the
> or 19th century, and more likely more modern than that.
> Robert Kokotailo
> Robert Kokotailo
> Calgary Coin
> WEB SITE : http://www.calgarycoin.com
> VCOINS ANCIENT : http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/calgarycoin
> VCOINS MODERN : http://www.vcoins.com/world/calgarycoin


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