[Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA. Fakes v other errors.

The dealers to avoid list includes sellers who sell
FAKES. And as I have posted often not the accidental fake.
If it included the latter you would find there two dealers
mentioned yesterday : Harlan J. Berk and Gorny and Mosch.
( And many others.)
There is quite a distance between a forgery and a misdescription.
Be it of a restoration.And if fakes occasionally pass even expert
dealers,why not a restoration.The question of refunds is ethical, and
I am sure Ernie (he has the right to intervene) will refund.
If any one wants to open a list of ethical dealers ,OK with me.
I will participate.I would propose that to go into the list
you need a third strike.
Ramon Saenz de Heredia

--- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com, Melissa and Kelly
<v8vibr8a@...> wrote:
> Well...
> As a newbie that is an absolute showstopper. Doesn't it just make
you cast your mind back to where dealers that are on that avoid
dealers list are fighting for themselves and being shot down on this
group and yet one of the most knowledgeable (from this point of view)
is falling short of the mark.
> Shame on you Ernie. Do the right thing, there must be some sort of
> Kelly Thomas
> New Zealand
> To: Ancientartifacts@...: churley482@...: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:58:29 -
0700Subject: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA
> Hi everyone,
> I can now report that the seller of the jug is none other than
Ernie Krumbein of Passage to Antiquity. The very person who has
compiled the 'List of Good Dealers' for this Group. How ironic! In
light of what I have said already, and latest developments, I would
like his company to be removed from the 'List of Good Dealers'. Or
perhaps a new list should be compiled of "So-called good dealers with
meaningless COAs".
> I gave Ernie a number of options:
> (a) give me a full refund of $500 for the jug (as per his COA);
> (b) I try to sell the piece on eBay and if it sells he refunds me
the balance up to $500;
> (c) he categorically refuses to give me a refund.
> Ernie has chosen (c) sadly. He has also refused to tell me whether
or not he believes the jug has more restoration than his COA states;
and he has refused Rolf's offer to look at the jug to give a second
opinion on it.
> All Ernie says is that because I have "altered" the jug by using a
tiny bit of acetone, he will not offer me a refund. He has not asked
to see a picture of the jug to see if it now looks different. And his
COA does not state that the slightest test on the piece will
invalidate the guarantee.
> I know very well that dealers do test pieces with acetone to see
whether the surface is original or restored. I have done so with some
pieces I have bought from other delears - dealers who deserve to be
on the 'List of Good Dealers' - and on the rare occasion that the
surface is not original I have obtained a full refund.
> So would the modifiers of the Group please accept this email as my
formal request to have Passage to Antiquity removed from the "List of
Good Sellers".
> Cheers,
> Stephen Churley
> ----- Original Message ----From: David K. <romulus2x@...>To:
Ancientartifacts@...: Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:32:41 PMSubject:
[Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA
> Hi Stephen,Then you have a clear case of misdescribed goods. I hope
the seller honours their obligations.David K.--- In Ancientartifacts@
yahoogroups. com, Stephen Churley <churley482@ ...> wrote:>> Hi
David,> Thanks. In this case I don't think it would be fair to
stretch the word "around" too far because the area I am questioning
is indeed the main body of the pot, not the areas immediately
adjacent to the junction of the handle and neck with the body. >
Cheers, Stephen> > > ----- Original Message ----> From: David K.
<romulus2x@ ..>> To: Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com> Sent:
Thursday, June 5, 2008 6:58:05 PM> Subject: [Ancientartifacts]
Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA> > > Hi Stephen,> Just a comment on
the linguistics ...> If the COA had stated "the handle and neck have
been restored" the situation would be clear since those would be the
*only* areas to have been restored. But the wording "has been
restored *around* the handle and neck ..." is more ambiguous and
could be taken to mean not the handle and neck themselves but the
areas of the pot immediately adjacent to them, i.e. the body of the
pot.> However, from what you say, it sounds as if the restoration
extends well away from just those areas - so the COA was wrong.> In
any case, having said all that, if I was the dealer I would simply
accept that the customer was not happy and refund.> David K.>

http://www.romulus2 .com/henjack/> http://www.romulus2 .com/lamps/>
> > --- In Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com, Stephen Churley
<churley482@ ..> wrote:> >> > Hi Ramon,> > The COA mentions that the
piece "has been restored around the handle and neck and is in
extremely good condition". But it appears there is also restoration
to the main body of the pot as well. I have tested small areas of the
piece with acetone and the red surface (which is supposed to be
burnished) comes off easily from both the restored and unrestored
areas. I have other red burnished pieces of similar age and culture
(4500 years old from the Middle East) which I have tested with
acetone and the burnish does not readily come off. > > I would rather
not circulate a picture at this stage because if I reveal too much
about the piece members of the Group may be able to identify the
seller. I would prefer to keep the seller anonymous at this stage. >
> Cheers, > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Ramon Jr
rsdeheredia@ ...> > To: Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com> > Sent:
Thursday, June 5, 2008 4:21:42 PM> > Subject: [Ancientartifacts]
Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA> > > > > > Is "extremely good" the
only mention to condition?.> > Or does COA mention restorations, as
you seem to imply.> > "I have discovered that the pot is more
restored that his COA > > described.."> > And to what degree.> > A
pic in photos section would be nice.> > Ramon Saenz de Heredia> > --
In Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com, Stephen Churley > >
<churley482@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Hi everyone,> > > I am having a
problem with a piece of ancient pottery which I > > bought last year
from a dealer who is on the 'good' list and who is a > > regular
contributor to this Group. I will refrain from giving his > > name
for the time being. > > > I have discovered that the pot is more
restored that his COA > > described. His COA has a 'Description'
section setting out the age > > and culture of the piece and also its
condition which is said to > > be 'extremely good'. The COA also
says:> > > "I guarantee that to the best of my knowledge and belief
the above > > described antiquity is authentic and from the period
given. Should > > this piece ever be shown to be other than as
described we will gladly > > refund the full purchase price."> > >
The seller is refusing to refund my money on the grounds that the > >
COA's description refers solely to authenticity not to condition. But
> > the 'Description' section does also refer to condition. > > > It
seems to me that condition cannot be dissociated from > >
authenticity here. If the seller had intended to do this he would > >
have had a separate section in the COA entitled 'Condition'. > > >
Either the COA is a serious document to be taken at face value or > >
not. This seller appears to be dodging his responsibilities. > > >
I would value your opinions and advice. > > > Cheers, > > > Stephen
Churley> > >> >>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Find singles in your area with Match.
> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fmatch%2Enz%2Emsn%


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