[Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA. Fakes v other errors.

Correction. Please read unethical dealers.
Ramon Saenz de Heredia
In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com, "Ramon Jr" <rsdeheredia@...>
wrote:
>
> HI.
> The dealers to avoid list includes sellers who sell
> FAKES. And as I have posted often not the accidental fake.
> If it included the latter you would find there two dealers
> mentioned yesterday : Harlan J. Berk and Gorny and Mosch.
> ( And many others.)
> There is quite a distance between a forgery and a misdescription.
> Be it of a restoration.And if fakes occasionally pass even expert
> dealers,why not a restoration.The question of refunds is ethical,
and
> I am sure Ernie (he has the right to intervene) will refund.
> If any one wants to open a list of ethical dealers ,OK with me.
> I will participate.I would propose that to go into the list
> you need a third strike.
> Ramon Saenz de Heredia
>
> --- In Ancientartifacts@yahoogroups.com, Melissa and Kelly
> <v8vibr8a@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Well...
> >
> > As a newbie that is an absolute showstopper. Doesn't it just make
> you cast your mind back to where dealers that are on that avoid
> dealers list are fighting for themselves and being shot down on
this
> group and yet one of the most knowledgeable (from this point of
view)
> is falling short of the mark.
> >
> > Shame on you Ernie. Do the right thing, there must be some sort
of
> compromise.
> >
> > Kelly Thomas
> > New Zealand
> >
> >
> >
> > To: Ancientartifacts@: churley482@: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:58:29 -
> 0700Subject: Re: [Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I can now report that the seller of the jug is none other than
> Ernie Krumbein of Passage to Antiquity. The very person who has
> compiled the 'List of Good Dealers' for this Group. How ironic! In
> light of what I have said already, and latest developments, I would
> like his company to be removed from the 'List of Good Dealers'. Or
> perhaps a new list should be compiled of "So-called good dealers
with
> meaningless COAs".
> >
> > I gave Ernie a number of options:
> >
> > (a) give me a full refund of $500 for the jug (as per his COA);
> >
> > (b) I try to sell the piece on eBay and if it sells he refunds me
> the balance up to $500;
> >
> > (c) he categorically refuses to give me a refund.
> >
> > Ernie has chosen (c) sadly. He has also refused to tell me
whether
> or not he believes the jug has more restoration than his COA
states;
> and he has refused Rolf's offer to look at the jug to give a second
> opinion on it.
> >
> > All Ernie says is that because I have "altered" the jug by using
a
> tiny bit of acetone, he will not offer me a refund. He has not
asked
> to see a picture of the jug to see if it now looks different. And
his
> COA does not state that the slightest test on the piece will
> invalidate the guarantee.
> >
> > I know very well that dealers do test pieces with acetone to see
> whether the surface is original or restored. I have done so with
some
> pieces I have bought from other delears - dealers who deserve to be
> on the 'List of Good Dealers' - and on the rare occasion that the
> surface is not original I have obtained a full refund.
> >
> > So would the modifiers of the Group please accept this email as
my
> formal request to have Passage to Antiquity removed from the "List
of
> Good Sellers".
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Stephen Churley
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----From: David K. <romulus2x@>To:
> Ancientartifacts@: Thursday, June 5, 2008 7:32:41 PMSubject:
> [Ancientartifacts] Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA
> >
> > Hi Stephen,Then you have a clear case of misdescribed goods. I
hope
> the seller honours their obligations.David K.--- In
Ancientartifacts@
> yahoogroups. com, Stephen Churley <churley482@ ...> wrote:>> Hi
> David,> Thanks. In this case I don't think it would be fair to
> stretch the word "around" too far because the area I am questioning
> is indeed the main body of the pot, not the areas immediately
> adjacent to the junction of the handle and neck with the body. >
> Cheers, Stephen> > > ----- Original Message ----> From: David K.
> <romulus2x@ ..>> To: Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com> Sent:
> Thursday, June 5, 2008 6:58:05 PM> Subject: [Ancientartifacts]
> Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA> > > Hi Stephen,> Just a comment on
> the linguistics ...> If the COA had stated "the handle and neck
have
> been restored" the situation would be clear since those would be
the
> *only* areas to have been restored. But the wording "has been
> restored *around* the handle and neck ..." is more ambiguous and
> could be taken to mean not the handle and neck themselves but the
> areas of the pot immediately adjacent to them, i.e. the body of the
> pot.> However, from what you say, it sounds as if the restoration
> extends well away from just those areas - so the COA was wrong.> In
> any case, having said all that, if I was the dealer I would simply
> accept that the customer was not happy and refund.> David K.>
> http://www.romulus2 .com/henjack/>

http://www.romulus2 .com/lamps/>
> > > --- In Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com, Stephen Churley
> <churley482@ ..> wrote:> >> > Hi Ramon,> > The COA mentions that
the
> piece "has been restored around the handle and neck and is in
> extremely good condition". But it appears there is also restoration
> to the main body of the pot as well. I have tested small areas of
the
> piece with acetone and the red surface (which is supposed to be
> burnished) comes off easily from both the restored and unrestored
> areas. I have other red burnished pieces of similar age and culture
> (4500 years old from the Middle East) which I have tested with
> acetone and the burnish does not readily come off. > > I would
rather
> not circulate a picture at this stage because if I reveal too much
> about the piece members of the Group may be able to identify the
> seller. I would prefer to keep the seller anonymous at this stage.
>
> > Cheers, > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Ramon
Jr
> rsdeheredia@ ...> > To: Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com> > Sent:
> Thursday, June 5, 2008 4:21:42 PM> > Subject: [Ancientartifacts]
> Re: 'Good' Seller with poor COA> > > > > > Is "extremely good" the
> only mention to condition?.> > Or does COA mention restorations, as
> you seem to imply.> > "I have discovered that the pot is more
> restored that his COA > > described.."> > And to what degree.> > A
> pic in photos section would be nice.> > Ramon Saenz de Heredia> > --

> In Ancientartifacts@ yahoogroups. com, Stephen Churley > >
> <churley482@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Hi everyone,> > > I am having a
> problem with a piece of ancient pottery which I > > bought last
year
> from a dealer who is on the 'good' list and who is a > > regular
> contributor to this Group. I will refrain from giving his > > name
> for the time being. > > > I have discovered that the pot is more
> restored that his COA > > described. His COA has a 'Description'
> section setting out the age > > and culture of the piece and also
its
> condition which is said to > > be 'extremely good'. The COA also
> says:> > > "I guarantee that to the best of my knowledge and belief
> the above > > described antiquity is authentic and from the period
> given. Should > > this piece ever be shown to be other than as
> described we will gladly > > refund the full purchase price."> > >
> The seller is refusing to refund my money on the grounds that the >
>
> COA's description refers solely to authenticity not to condition.
But
> > > the 'Description' section does also refer to condition. > > >
It
> seems to me that condition cannot be dissociated from > >
> authenticity here. If the seller had intended to do this he would >
>
> have had a separate section in the COA entitled 'Condition'. > > >
> Either the COA is a serious document to be taken at face value or >
>
> not. This seller appears to be dodging his responsibilities. > >
>
> I would value your opinions and advice. > > > Cheers, > > > Stephen
> Churley> > >> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Find singles in your area with Match.
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> >
>

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